about a dozen questions

[krtshadow]

Hi everyone. Obviously, I'm new to the forum, and I have a ton of questions for the filmmakers out here. So far, through this site, I've seen:

The Babysitter Conspiracies (plus their Summer's End trailer)
The Note
Return to the Woods
Film #3

As for reviewing or offering opinions I want to hold off for a bit. Not because I don't like them, I do. Also, I give huge credit to anyone with the stones to hang their stuff out there on the net. But there are some technical questions about each that I don't understand.

So, the reason I am posting is to see what you folks have done in the past. I will be doing my own short this summer and any advice would help immensely.

For pre-production:
-Did you have a script or a general treatment? Some looked pretty tight on the dialogue, others not so.
-Storyboard? As I will be director AND DoP it doesn't seem to matter so much.

-How much help did you need in planning/preparing? Or maybe, how many hours a day were you putting into it?

-How much cajoling/wheedling/begging/threatening did you need to do? Were people happy to help or lend space? How about props?

For Production
-First off, what format? DV seems to be the way to go, but there are camera and there are cameras. I have a mid-to-high-range Sony DV, did anyone use professional grade stuff?

-How about accessories? Tripods, makeshift dollies? Has anybody found a way to mimic a steadicam (that steadyshot thing sucks)?

-Did you find it easy or hard to deal with people who are helping you for no money? I mean, I need help and friends are offering, but I don't want someone acting like it's such a HUUUUGE favor and then not showing up at the last minute because, say, "Friends" was on.

-Sound. It seems like a huge issue on a lot of the stuff I've seen so far. Not to sound like a huge *ss, but was it forgotten? Realized too late? Too expensive? I have an advantage in that being a musician I have a better understanding of recording, I guess, and already have (too much) enough equipment to makeshift something. I mean, no one ever comes out of a movie going, "WOW, forget the MOVIE, the SOUND was incredible!" but bad sound can kill a movie. The largest criticism of all the shorts I've seen so far is that by and large most of the dialogue is mush. If you can't understand the dialogue, how much are you missing?

-How much/little did you shoot? On tape, it seems so cheap you can shoot just about anything you want, time permitting. Obviously you don't want it to be boring for your cast or crew, but were you hammering for that perfect take? Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of actors are stumbling over their lines in the films. I've done quite a bit of stage acting as well. It seems like the lines weren't memorized, the actors were too concerned getting the words out in the right order. Couldn't you do multiple takes and cut out the bad lines in post? Nobody wants to line read for an actor, but hey, this is your movie, I figure if I have to spell it out for everybody so be it, it's my gosh-darned ;D movie!

This is getting long...I'll follow up in a bit.

[krtshadow]

I'm sure that there are some out there thinking, "Who does he think he is, Scorsese?" Far from it. If any comments or questions come out sounding rude or derogatory, I assure you that is not how they are meant.

Now, more questions.

Post-production
-Obviously, a big deal is how you edit the movie, and I'm pretty sure that you all would have done it non-linear. What software did you use? Mac or PC?

-As a general consensus, what was your ratio of used footage vs unused. For example, was there, say, ten minutes of footage for every one minute in the final product?

-Did anyone use, or try to use, timecode? Did you feel you needed it? It seems like a good idea, at least to keep headaches away when you're sifting through all the raw footage trying to decide which takes to use.

-Did the computer you were using have limitations? I keep reading about RAM SCSI DMA blah, blah, blah...My computer is pretty beefy, I've continually added to it.

-How much does cutting suck? As an experiment I did some basic footage from different angles, and using both the bundled software (MGI) and Windows Movie Maker I managed to make a near-complete mess on the first try. With time things came together, but man, not fun.

-I did notice some looping and post sound. Hard or easy to sync? There is the whole R. Rodriguez school of cut-when-it-goes-out-of-sync but is there an easy way to make it work later on? (btw, anybody read Rebel Without a Crew? It's inspiring.)

-Last (I hope), if you could think of a time ratio between pre, production, and post, what would it be? Where was the most spent? I'm thinking the post will be the most arduous and painstaking, but who knows?

Anyway, I hope I haven't stepped on toes. I'd like to be a part of the group here and I hope to be able to show you guys what I accomplished over the summer. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

Kevin

[armagecko]

Hi, Kevin. Welcome to the board. I am not responsible for any of the movies that you have viewed on the board so far, so I can't comment specifically on any of them, but I do have around ten years experience in the field and will try to answer some of your questions. All of my answers are simply my opinion and should be taken as such. You might want to check my previous posts to determine if my point-of-view is consistent with the goals of your project.

Pre-production - Script? Always. A general treatment is what you write before you write the script. It keeps you from getting lost as you are writing the script, just as the script keeps you from getting lost as you are shooting the movie. If you try to shoot a movie with nothing but a treatment, you'll end up with 29 hours of footage and not a single story in sight. Unless you're shooting Blair Witch (and thank God you're not. Some guys named Myrick & Sanchez beat ya to it) or you have experience with GOOD improv acting and writing (Yes, improv is written, folks), you definitely need a script.

Just because your director and DP doesn't mean you don't need to storyboard. Just as the mechanics involved in writing the script help you to narrow your focus and create a story instead of a series of random events, storyboarding will help you in deciding exactly which shots will tell your story best BEFORE you begin shooting. Let's see, which is easier: Spending fifteen minutes sketching a scene from a possible angle, or spending two hours setting up, lighting, rehearsing, and shooting a scene from an angle that ultimately doesn't work in the editing room? So many low/no budget directors go wrong by skipping this step and it is SO obvious in their finished product. It doesn't really matter if you "can't draw." If you're worried about the finished product, get someone who can draw. But the ultimate goal of storyboarding is NOT to create pretty pictures. The goal is help you decide on the visual pictures that will best tell your story. The process is often more important than the outcome. Most no/low budget directors are so focused on doing things "on the cheap," yet they neglect the one aspect of planning and pre-production that could save themselves bundles - in time, money, respect, morale on the set, and prescription medicine. The answer to this question alone could fill a book, so I'll cut my rantings short. The bottom line is: You need to storyboard.

Time in pre-production - This depends upon the size of your project. Obviously if you're shooting a comedic short that requires only two interior location, two actors and just three props, your pre-production time will be considerably less than that for a 90-minute action feature with a cast of forty, a car chase, special effects, and fifty locations (not to mention the exploding ocean-liner). This kind of Hollywood-style production takes months, if not years, of five-days-a-week pre-production.

From a no/low budget perspective begging would be the more appropritate word. How much begging? Well, how much money are you trying to save? Everybody knows that time is money, and if you're asking for someone's help without offering them adequate compensation, you'd better ask very nicely. Thankfully, asking nicely can still go a long way in most parts of this country (Good luck if you're trying this in France, however.) Some are helpful, some are not. It just depends on how you ask and who you ask.

Media Format - What do you intend to do with your movie? If you intend for it to play in a cinema, then you should consider renting better equipment. If you intend to show it on-line or on VHS for friends, then your Sony DV is fine. I don't mean to sound trite. Sony makes a good camera. Their DX-1000 was standard equipment for many a documentary filmmaker. But, anything less than their "pro-sumer" models is going to be inadequate for color-saturation and clarity if you throw it up on "the big screen." For this you need at least a 3-CCD camera. All consumer cameras have only 1 CCD chip for all three colors in the video spectrum. The pro-sumer cameras on up have 3 CCDs - one chip for each color - red, blue, and green. This allows for better color and clarity in your recorded image. If you want a better picture for an affordable price, check into renting a Canon GL-1, XL-1 or Sony equivalent. These are all small 3 CCD cameras. If you're really devoted, try renting an Arriflex 16mm film camera, but this being the Low Budget Horror Film board, I don't expect that this is an option for you.

Accessories - Tripod? Certainly. Dolly? If you can afford it, sure. Steady-Cam? On this budget? I don't think so. You will definitely need a tripod, preferably one with a "fluid head." This will allow you to pan smoothly. There are low-budget dollies available for sale (around $400) and for rent. Plus, there are several plans for building your own. (See "Digital Filmmaking 101" or "Making Movies at Used Car Prices." Or do a Google search.) These are always helpful.

Free help - It IS a HUGE favor. Like I said, time is money, and you ain't payin'. That makes helping you a HUGE favor. And you should treat it like such by being very appreciative and thankful. If you want to be guilt-free, offer your friends or helpers a stake in the movie. Some will do it for credit alone, but others may want at least the possibility of a reward. If you suspect someone is undependable, don't give him a job that requires responsibility. If you do, you may be sorry. Remember this: When shooting a movie, the worst thing that can happen WILL. When it does, you don't want to be dependent on an irresponsible moron.

Sound - Often overlooked, sound quality can make all the difference. Some will argue that sound quality is more important than image quality and I'm not sure if I would disagree. Audiences are often forgiving of poor picture quality. However, this is NOT true for sound. Unfortunately, it's this "makeshift something" approach that results in poor recorded sound. You're a musician, so I'm sure you've got a ton of Shure 57s and 58s. Unfortunately, none of these mics will be very useful for you. To get the best quality sound you will need a condenser shotgun mic (Sennheiser and Audio Technica have several models) with a boom pole and possibly a couple of lavalieres (body mics - once again, see Audio Technica or Sony). A shotgun mic is indespensible. Get a good one, use it, and forget all about those muffled, incoherent conversations.

Shooting ratio - Most movies are shot at a 4 to 1 or a 3 to 1 ratio. So, for a 90-minute feature, you might end up with 360 minutes of footage. Sometimes more, sometimes less. (For the record, the actors in Blair Witch shot 22 hours of footage. That's 1,320 minutes, folks. Just another example of why you should storyboard). Video tape is cheap, but, usually, time is not. Most of us are on a schedule of some kind. However, if you have the luxury of no schedule, shoot till the cows come home. But, be warned: Editing your "monster" will truly be a nightmare. This is why you storyboarded everything, right?

Coaching actors - Different actors require different approaches. Most stage actors will absolutely despise you for giving them a line reading. Describe what you want for as long as you want, but don't you dare tell them how to say a line. Other people could care less. Know your cast and know which way works for whom. BTW, one way to get the reading you want from a stage actor is to keep saying, "I need a little more" or "Try something else," until s/he finally says, "Okay, smart guy, how would you say it?" Then you tell him. Usually, a little diplomacy comes in real handy

[armagecko]

Part II

Scorsese or not, you've got questions, we've got answers. (Take that, Marty!

Post-production - We currently use Final Cut Pro 4 on a Mac, but I hear Adobe Premiere (PC) is good, and I have used an Avid with great results, as well.

Ratio - See previous reply.

Timecode - Are you using a DAT? If not, you probably won't need to worry about timecode. Most "consumer" camera timecode is incorrect anyway. Your best bet for low/no budget shooting without a DAT is to record your sound through a mixer and directly into the camera. You can double-check your sinc by using a "slate" or "hand-clap" before the scene. If you're using a DAT, you may want to use timecode.

Cutting - Editing is made so much easier if you storyboarded in pre-production (see previous comments). Editing is tedious work, no doubt about it.

Synching sound - If you record sound directly into your video camera, it shouldn't go "out of synch." (Unless you have problems with your editing program) Your video and audio are already linked together. If some dialogue is unintelligible (and your sound person did not catch it), you can do a voice-over in post and plug it in (if you were smart enough to record a few minutes of ambient sound at the end of the scene). Simple operation with a quality editing program. Also, again, if your plan is to show your movie or sell it as a professional product, you'll need a quality editing program.

Pre/Post production - Interestingly enough, the more time spent in pre-production, the less time it takes in post. The best directors are those that have a good understanding of the editing process. That's why storyboarding is so important. It eliminates the most time-consuming aspect of editing and allows the editor to focus on simply choosing the best takes.

I can't speak for anyone else, Kevin, but all of my toes are intact! Good luck on your project!

[krtshadow]

Armagecko,

Thanks a ton for your answers. Some of your advice mirrored what I was already thinking, but more often it was a good boot in the pants.

Scripting was always set in stone for me. I love the writing process. In what I've done so far I've used a notebook to jot down brainstorms, then gone to the index card method when I think a spine is shaping up. From there I've gone straight to the script. There are so many things that happen in stories when you write, it would seem unfair to not have written the script first. I may not be writing (can you even do that?) Blair Witch, but I would love to have their profit margin! (I'm not holding my breath.)

You are very right about the storyboard. I was trying to time the short by holding a stopwatch and watching it in my head and got lost on which was a better shot! No, I can't draw for sh@t, but I can do what I have to.

My camera will have to do for now. We'd all love to shoot on Arriflex's, but there is reality to worry about, too. Unfortunately it IS only a one CCD camera, but my results so far don't seem horrible. And I doubt a theater will ever see this.

Steadicams are obviously beyond the price range. I was wondering if anyone had a DIY facsimile, or something that approximated the steadicam.

Your sound advice was (forgive me) very,umm, sound. Of couse I have too many sm57 and '58s, never thought of using those. I have one decent condenser and can probably get hold of one more, maybe some lavaliers as well. What do you record to? Do people still use DAT or are the new standalone boards the new standard? Portability and battery power are a big issue, some shoots might not have power accessible.

Being an actor, and having directed a few stage productions, I know what a pain/joy we cna be. I was thinking more along the lines of, "my best friend isn't doing anything today, so he'll star." I was wondering if that was the case in some of the films I saw. Obviously, someone with acting experience will be able to interpret and respond to direction, whereas poeple with zero experience might not have a clue as to what I'm talking about. I certainly wouldn't want to be Ceasar on set.

Again, thanks a ton. You've given me plenty to think about and hopefully saved me some headaches! This is what a good forum is all about, kudos to Nzo and all you guys (and gals) who make it whjat it is.

P.S. An interesing topic: Share some of your shooting horror stories. What went wrong, how did you deal with it? I know I'll learn a ton, and maybe we all could.

[krtshadow]

Man, I didn't even see your second post!

Since I'm on a PC, and I have also heard great things about Adobe, I think I'm gonna check it out. Anyone used Pinnacle? Good/bad?

I don't want to go straight into the camera for sound. My sound editing stuff is pretty powerful and I was planing on using the cameras audio for reference only, uinless something was so good it had to stay. I was thinking already about a clap or a marker sound to keep things in sync, and was planning on getting ambient sound to mix in.

Again, thanks heaps.

[HailtotheKing]

Hey Krtshadow....glad to see that you watched Return To The Woods. Here is answers to your questions!

For pre-production:
-Did you have a script or a general treatment?Yes we did have a script going into it. I wrote about 3 drafts before we desided on the final one. We did do ab-libbing on set as if you can get digaloge to sound more natural then it is, go for it!
-Storyboard? We had made some storyboards for the film, but we didn't storyboard the whole film, just certian scenes that we thought would be tricky to shoot.

-How much help did you need in planning/preparing? Or maybe, how many hours a day were you putting into it?
I really did all the planning and preparing. My dad helped me with some stuff, but I normally just do everything.

-How much cajoling/wheedling/begging/threatening did you need to do? Were people happy to help or lend space? How about props? It was very easy to get crew people to help. I posted on the net that I was going to do an Evil Dead fan film, and all at once people start writing me emails to say what can I do? What can I make? How can I help? I couldn't believe all the respondes as the film hadn't even began shooting yet. We got a makeup man all the way from England, Christian Swift, who is just great and really came through for us. Then we had other people here in the states, like Rich Douglas that did our music that's all the way in TX! So lots of help from all over. Now for cast....errr...not an easy thing to do. I found all my male actors but the females were so hard to get it wasn't funny. But I found 2 great girls that really did a fine job and didn't complin about what "makeup" they were wearing for that time.

For Production
-First off, what format? DV seems to be the way to go, but there are camera and there are cameras. I have a mid-to-high-range Sony DV, did anyone use professional grade stuff? We shot on a Sony DV. Sony makes the best stuff around.

-How about accessories? Tripods, makeshift dollies? Has anybody found a way to mimic a steadicam (that steadyshot thing sucks)? We had a tripod that really help with lots of shots. That's another thing I really like to do is mix up alot of neat angles, so not to bore the audience.

-Did you find it easy or hard to deal with people who are helping you for no money? No it was pretty easy working with everyone, once I found everyone. Other then the casting part, everything went really well.

-Sound. It seems like a huge issue on a lot of the stuff I've seen so far. Not to sound like a huge *ss, but was it forgotten? Sound is very hard to do with ultra-low budget. But we tried are best. Dubbing is a very hard thing to do, but I think we did it good in some places and some places not so good. That's one thing I'll be working on for the next project, BETTER SOUND!!!

[HailtotheKing]

Ok "Mr. Scorsese" here we go with part 2! lol

Post-production
-Obviously, a big deal is how you edit the movie, and I'm pretty sure that you all would have done it non-linear. What software did you use? I use a PC and I'm using Ulead VideoStudio and Media Studio Pro.

-As a general consensus, what was your ratio of used footage vs unused. For example, was there, say, ten minutes of footage for every one minute in the final product? I would say that we used pretty much everything we shot except for about 3 cut scenes.

-Did anyone use, or try to use, timecode? Did you feel you needed it? Timecode is important to keep track of everything. It was also important to put a timecode on the final edit, so the composer could score to picture. It helped him a great deal.

-Did the computer you were using have limitations? Oh yes...when you start editing a movie on a computer, things always start to happen! Run out of space, ect.

-How much does cutting suck?
It's hard, but I wouldn't say it sucks. Editing is where the movie starts to come together, and you can make it better or worse with editing.[/b]

-I did notice some looping and post sound. Hard or easy to sync? Again hard to sync because of the no budget thing.

-Last (I hope), if you could think of a time ratio between pre, production, and post, what would it be? Where was the most spent? I'm thinking the post will be the most arduous and painstaking, but who knows? I think you have to speard your time evenly in all areas. If not one thing will be lacking. So you have to stay on the project all the way till it's done and out! I got the idea to do RTTW about a year before we shot. So I would say about year and a half.


Thanks for posting the questions. Felt like doing an interview! lol If you have any other questions or anything feel free to post away!

[krtshadow]

Hail,

Thanks for posting. RTTW was one of my favorites, being an Evil Dead fanatic myself. I did have some specific questions about your film.

The car scene, looped? It came through a lot clearer than some of the other dialogue. Shooting, did you get your sound straight off the camera? My big problem is not being able to hear dialogue, in almost ALL of the shorts I've seen. When the dialogue is crucial to further the plot, that's a big issue.

Of course, because I'm writing it now I can't think of the other questions I had. When I do, I'll try to race to the keyboard.

[krtshadow]

aha! Remembered one for you, Hail.

What size crew did you have? How many days did you shoot?

[armagecko]

Just a follow up on your sound questions, Kevin... The industry is becoming so diverse with the advances in video that there really isn't much of a standard, necessarily. Different teams use different equipment to achieve specific results. Most productions use a DAT for sound, but some still use a NAGRA. However, oftentimes in the no/low budget field, there is no money to rent a DAT, so sound is recorded directly into the camera.

I understand that you have some good sound equipment that you want to use for your shoot. However, don't jump to the conclusion that the poor sound that you may have heard in other productions was the result of a cheaper camera. Many consumer-grade cameras have the capability of recording audio at 16-bits - that's CD quality sound. Hard to beat it. There's plenty of room left on mini-DV video tape for a good camera to record really good sound. So, the camera is not necessarily the one to blame.

Most of the sound problems that I have encountered in no/low budget productions were the result of poor decisions made by members of the production team (usually the director).

1. Poor choice of microphone - Most try to use cheaper equipment or mics that are readily available. As I said previously, there is no substitute for a QUALITY condenser shotgun microphone. This should be the mic used for 95-100% of your production. Don't skimp here. The secret formula is in the words: Condenser & Shotgun. If you use a condenser that is not a shotgun you'll pick up every little extraneous noise that has nothing to do with your scene. (Just wait till you spend 8 hours in post trying to take out cricket noise from a field 3 blocks away!) If you use a shotgun that's not a condenser, your actors will be forced to swallow the mic. (I love to see a microphone intruding into a scene from the top of my movie screen, don't you?) Aside from a camera and tripod, the best investment a budding moviemaker can make is a QUALITY shotgun mic and a BOOM POLE.

2. Not using a mixer - Can you guess how many sound problems can be fixed on the set by adjusting the EQ? Lots. A separate sound mixer (complete with sound person) allows you one more variable to control your sound before it is recorded. Got wind noise or road noise coming through your wind screen? Take out some bottom end. Your Grip is afraid of heights and won't climb the fire escape for that balcony scene? Boost your gain and grab the dialogue from the street. Many problems arise that cannot be fixed without using a separate mixer.

3. Lack of forethought - For a Studio shoot, at the end of every scene, the sound engineer will ask for "quiet" so that s/he can record at least two minutes of "ambience." S/he will also use this down-time to record any "wild lines," or lines that may be delivered off-camera. The reason for this is because s/he knows that the editor may need these audio clips during the editing process to create the illusion of continuity. If your actor turned too far away from the mic in that restaurant scene, and you had to call the actor back in to overdub the lines, how are you going to recreate the noisy restaurant chatter in the background? If you recorded ambient sound, you can just loop that under your new overdub and ... viola!... instant continuity.

Other thoughts and comments: There's really no short-cut for a steady-cam. These devices are intricate machines. So much so, that the people that use them professionally are trained specifically for this instrument. (Some even pass the torch to their children.) The only other alternative that I can think of is Canon's Optical Image Stabilization that minimizes camera shake without distorting the image.

I came into this profession as a stage actor, as well, so I understand actor psychology. Check out my previous posts on Casting for more info regarding this important aspect of production.

As for portability and battery power... If access to a power outlet is a problem, I suggest getting at least one extra battery - the eight-hour kind. And get a 12-volt adapter so that you can charge these from your car. This should provide you with at least 10 hours of shooting time a day. If you require more, just buy another battery. With three, you can always rotate so that you always have a fresh one.

And again, good luck with your project!

[HailtotheKing]

Kevin,
I'm glad you liked RTTW. Did you pick up the Tom Sullivan cameo? Here is the answers to your questions....

The car scene is looped. I didn't think it turned out that well....the dubs were rather dull. But I guess you thought it cam through clearer then other stuff? There is other stuff in the movie that is dubbed but not alot.
We did get the sounds straight off the cam. I know I know, never do that. We had a boom mic all ready to go then it broke or something right before we started.
That's why I said with my next film....I KNOW we're going to have a better sound setup BEFORE we start filming.

What size crew did you have? How many days did you shoot? We had a crew size of about 3-4 people. Yep...I told you it was ultra-low budget. Now that is crew people on set at one time. We had about 6-9 crew that helped us but were to far away to make it to set. We started filming on August 7th 02 and then went till about Nov. We had pickup shots in Dec. Editing started and the film was relased back on Feb. 14, 2003. ;D If you have any more questions feel free to ask.